"you need faith" stalemate

Deleted · Post by **Deleted** » Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:22 pm

Originally posted by DarkBronzePlant:
This is a difficult question, and the only real answer is very difficult to accept.

With few exceptions, it is impossible to break the stalemate. The reason is that faith, by definition, requires the faithful to ignore logic and just keep on believin'. Thus, there is no logical argument that can break the stalemate. So the real answer is that, when you are up against a person shouting "Must have faith! Must have faith!" you have no choice but to end the conversation. There is no winning that argument, no hope for any agreement in that conversation.

I'll probably be flamed for this next paragraph, but it is similar to the old adage of "you can't argue with an ignoramus." If you are debating a topic with someone who is entirely ignorant of the subject, you will get nowhere. Instead, you will get someone who cannot/will not listen to you, and will stick to half-baked arguments that mean nothing. Only with someone who is intelligent on the subject matter can you have a legitimate exchange of ideas, and can you hope to change his/her mind (or have your own mind changed, for that matter.) Tempting as it may be to outwit an ignorant person, it just can't be done.

The same goes for someone who just sticks to the argument of "I have faith."

DBP,
I'm not a Christian but I can give you the standard comeback for your post.

The believers will use the "Pearls before swine" line on you.

Which would be fine, if they would just use the line and walk, but they just dont seem to be able to do that.

They have to give you a long and involved explanation of casting pearls before swine, like none of us have ever heard that line before.
W

Deleted · Post by **Deleted** » Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:26 pm

They have to give you a long and involved explanation of casting pearls before swine, like none of us have ever heard that line before.

Ironically, I'm going to have to ask for an explanation. I've never heard of "casting pearls before swine." Can you elaborate?

Thanks in advance.

Deleted · Post by **Deleted** » Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:54 pm

Originally posted by DarkBronzePlant:
Ironically, I'm going to have to ask for an explanation. I've never heard of "casting pearls before swine." Can you elaborate?

Thanks in advance.

Casting pearls before swine - meaning throwing alleged priceless items at pigs who don't know how to appreciate the alleged priceless items.

A comparable Chinese saying would be "playing the guitar to a cow." - choose your audience.

(If they have thrown food, the pigs are gonna swarm all over them. Talk about not using your brain.)

[This message has been edited by KCTAN (edited June 19, 2001).]

Deleted · Post by **Deleted** » Tue Jun 19, 2001 11:29 pm

I don't think it's that difficult. First I ask them what they have faith in. If they answer 'god', I point out that it's impossible to have faith in a being you don't believe exists, therefore their faith must have come after their belief not before. This is actually a surprisingly accurate description often. If someone came up to them while they were still nonbelievers and said 'you should believe our god exists because you should have faith that he exists', they would respond 'you're crazy'. Faith is therefore something that a believer uses to defend their belief against logic and evidence once they already believe.

If they answer that it's the bible they have faith in. Ask them why they do. Why not have faith in the Koran. Or any other beliefs which are equally justifiable (read: not at all) by faith.

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"Blind faith can justify anything. If a man believes in a different god, or
even if he uses a different ritual for worshipping the same god, blind
faith can decree that he should die - on the cross, at the stake, skewered
on a Crusader's sword, shot in a Beirut street, or blown up in a bar in
Belfast. Memes for blind faith have their own ruthless ways of propagating
themselves. This is true of patriotic and political as well as religious
blind faith."Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene
(New edition, New York: Oxford University Press, 1989), p. 198.
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"To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the
side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer."Ayn Rand
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"Christian faith is a habit of flouting reason in forming and
maintaining one's answer to the question whether there is a god. Its
essence is the determination to believe that there is a god no matter
what the evidence may be."
Richard Robinson, "Religion and Reason" Critiques of God
(Buffalo, NY: Prometheus, 1997) p. 121.
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