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Meet the American Pastor Behind Uganda's Anti-Gay Crackdown

Discussions about global religions, Non Abrahamic. Historical aspects to be discussed in History of Non Abrahamic Religions/Philosophies & Related Texts.
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Post by dockeen » Thu May 01, 2014 7:48 pm

As the hours before darkness grow short, I wish to extend my thanks to all this venue as well. Best wishes and bon voyage, to those moving to the new locale, and those who are heading to hell, I mean, not joining us.

Love ALL of you!

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Post by Ed » Fri May 02, 2014 4:20 am

ED wrote:No, Paul would have said it was God, but he rather he said it was YOU that made the decision.
No Ed. Paul has presented his argument in Romans 9:9-23, in Ephesians 1:4-5 , and in 2 Thess 2:13-14.
God already did the choosing, 'before the creation of the world'
It was a done deal 'from the beginning', when HE made the predestinated choice of His 'Elect'. HE predetermined whom would be HIS chosen.
Thus 'Paul's' statement in Romans 9:16,'So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.' and immediately follows this with the example of Pharaoh, and how HE, being God, held absolute control over Pharaoh, so that Pharaoh could NOT relent, as this was not what Yahweh had predetermined, predestinated and MADE happen, USING and then discarding Pharaoh in accord with to HIS predestinated PLAN.

There was absolutely NOTHING that Pharaoh could do that could or would prevent or foil God's predetermined PLAN from being carried out, nor was he allowed by Yahweh to become a 'convert ', any more than Esau either could have in any way affected God's predetermined hatred against him from before he was even born.

Yahweh had made HIS choice and plan, and there was not anything Esau could ever do that would change the fact of Yahweh (God's) predetermined hatred of him.
Yahweh (God) had chose to HATE Esau long before he had even drawn his first breath, even from 'before the creation of the world.

If you believe The Bible's horse shit, according to The Bible, it is only because God Himself chose to have you believe this kind of horse shit since 'before the foundation of the world'.
If HE made that choice in the beginning, choosing what you would believe, then you a mere man, have no choice at all but to dance to the strings that HE pulls.

I don't need profess any false pretense to a 'exhaustive knowledge of God' (which you sure as fuck do not possess)
All I need to know concerning the Jewish God is what the writers of The Bible wrote, and understood, and explained concerning their God, and how HE operates.

Whatever your misunderstandings and ignorant denials concerning their beliefs, or what manner of imaginative horse shit and inept analogies you can invent and make up about your imaginary sky-beast, has no impact at all upon what the texts of The Bible reveal.[/QUOTE]

No, all the evidence points to the early jews believing that man made free will decisions that can be judged by God AND God was in complete control, because this is what the OT teaches. I would wager that most modern devout jews believe basically the same thing. If I am wrong please provide the name of an ancient or modern devout jew who does not believe we have free will and that God is in control.

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Post by Ed » Fri May 02, 2014 4:36 am

Ed;7666772 wrote:
Atheos;7666670 wrote:I'd also like to point out once again and for the record that Ed's constant bleating that "If god doesn't exist there is no objective basis for morality" is another type of fallacy: The appeal to consequence.

If the only consequence of a proposition is that "I don't like it" the consequences have nothing to do with whether or not the proposition is true. It's like saying "It would be bad if I really have inoperable pancreatic cancer, therefore I don't have it." (I don't to my knowledge have it by the way just to be clear - just using this as an illustration.)

Ed says atheists have no right to say that what Hitler did was wrong. I don't agree with this statement and would be glad to present my case, but even if it were absolutely and unimpeachably true it would have no bearing on whether or not god actually existed. It would simply be an unpleasant consequence of the truth that there was no god. It's tough to be a grown up and have to deal with the fact that there's no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy and no magical daddy in the sky. Sometimes the truth is tough. But at least it's the truth.
You are right. that was not a direct argument for the existence of God, it was argument that most atheists cannot live consistent with their beliefs, because they constantly ACT as if there was an objective moral standard. They vehemently argue against Hitler, slavery, and the supposed evil things that God did as if there was some agreed upon objective morality even when at the same time they say we cannot judge Mayans for human sacrifice, thereby relativizing morality. But it is an indirect argument for the existence of the Christian God because atheists are created in his image and therefore have a moral conscience, which explains why they continue to behave like there is an objective morality even while they are verbalizing that there is not one.
I see why you think that is an argument for the christian god, but the actual evidence indicates that this is the result of evolutionary development. During harsher periods such as ice ages the only way for small pockets of our ancestors to survive was to work together to their mutual benefit. Those who were predisposed to be uncooperative either failed to survive because they didn't willingly join the group or were possibly killed for the greater good by the group itself. A combination of natural and artificial selection ensured that over time our ancestors became more and more predisposed towards social cooperation. This became the dominant survival strategy.

If all people were created in the image of god and were freebasing a set of absolute objective morals inherited from god himself then there would be no variance in those moral standards. Slavery would still be perfectly acceptable (after all, God obviously approved of it, why shouldn't we) and stoning people for working on the Sabbath day, committing adultery or practicing witchcraft would be commonplace.

But more importantly not one of us would lack this moral blueprint. It would be as fundamental a part of our nature as the need to breathe.

Yet approximately 4% of the human population are born without the capacity to appreciate social norms (morals). As adults such individuals feel no more personal remorse for maiming a child than most of us would feel for squashing a cockroach. They cannot develop a conscience anymore than the rest of us can grow a third arm. The capacity to feel empathy is lacking in these people in the same way that the capacity to solve relativistic equations is lacking in people who suffer from severe mental retardation. These people have a very real and genetically programmed condition that has been named "Antisocial Personality Disorder." Behavioral training can help such an individual coexist in society but it can never give him the ability to feel remorse for atrocities.

All of this evidence is completely consistent with the robust theory of common descent. It is not consistent with the claim that an all powerful god created us "in his image" with an exact copy of his objective moral standards. Your argument is defeated.

On a side note, as posting to this forum concludes I'd like to say that in spite of our differences it has been enjoyable arguing with you. Not everyone here obviously feels that way, but I've always been of the opinion that it's the open exchange of radically different ideas that helps one sharpen one's wit and examine the reasons one holds the beliefs one does. You've always remained civil in spite of the not-so-subtle wisps of acrimony wafted in your direction, and I think all of us can admire that.[/QUOTE]

No, actually there is general agreement on certain morals worldwide, it is wrong to murder a member of your tribe, it is wrong to lie to a member of your tribe, it is wrong to torture babies, it is generally wrong to commit adultery, it is generally wrong to steal from members of your tribe and etc. The reason it is more general now is because of man's sinful nature, originally our moral conscience was perfect and perfectly matched God's moral laws but over time our consciences have become corrupted. But if you become a Christian and the Holy spirit lives in you, your morality gradually starts returning back to its original state but we never reach it in this life, only in the next life does it fully return. As far as that 4%, because of our presently fallen and abnormal world there are people that are born both physically and mentally mutated, and that is the case with the 4%, they are spiritually damaged to the point that they don't have a conscience, though with God's help I believe God can create them one and they can become more normal like the rest of us, though all of us still have a sinful nature, theirs is just much worse. Thanks for the small compliment. I have generally enjoyed our discussions but there are few here that are not as enjoyable as others and it becomes a little frustrating but I am used to it.

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Post by Ed » Fri May 02, 2014 4:39 am

[quote=""dockeen""]As the hours before darkness grow short, I wish to extend my thanks to all this venue as well. Best wishes and bon voyage, to those moving to the new locale, and those who are heading to hell, I mean, not joining us.

Love ALL of you![/quote]