When I read mturner's smug, insulting, and generally infuriating responses to my earlier comments, I banged my desk and a bunch of quarters fell down. This happens a lot. I debated a creationist once (I am not implying you are a creationist, mturner: if you start putting words in my mouth again, I will not be responsible for what I do) and he just kept coming back with 4-million-page-long responses about Behe and irreducible complexity and all that rot. When I returned to the forum one time and scanned his latest response, I threw a book across the room with anger.
Mturner, you are reading these words and you are happy. "He was angry at what I said, which means he is insecure in his beliefs, and somewhere in his little heart of hearts he knows I am right."
Go away, mturner. You have your answers. Well done. You will die a satisfied man. I will not. I have no opinion that can hold up to more than 5 minutes of debate. I don't know you're right, though. I still think that the illusion of a teleologically-forward-directed evolution is just that, an illusion, and that any orderly system over time will appear to have been designed.
You will have a 40,000 page reply for that comment. And you know what? I don't want to hear it.
I can't debate you.
You win.
You may be right.
YOU MAY BE RIGHT.
YOU MAY BE 100% CORRECT.
YO MAY HAVE FIGURED IT ALL OUT.
Or perhaps Duane Gish did.
Or perhaps Michael Behe did.
Or perhaps Gould did.
Or perhaps Dawkins did.
Or perhaps Darwin did.
You know what? They all disagree with one another to varying degrees, they can all write 4 million page books explaining WHY they disagree with one another, and they are all far more intelligent and educated than I am. So fuck it. The whole thing's a goddam waste of time unless you are a professional and can quote the latest experiment by Q. Dodgkins and L. Verschportsmoken Playovskosta in which it is definitively proven that cannibalism in flatworms leads to the growth of propellors.
Maybe Dawkins just got his hooks in me first. Maybe he implanted his evil nihilist memes in me and I'm trapped forever. Maybe the whole thing is a fucking religion. You know what? I don't know. I really honest to God just don't know anymore.
So I give up. I am going to become a creationist now.
No, wait. I'll become what mturner is, instead. Which is, uh, I guess, a teleologically-forward-directed-neo-Lamarckian-evolutionist. Or something. I'll become what mturner is because I don't like his smartass tone and I have no desire to trade 400-post debates with him. So, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. La de da!
/the following has been an angry rant. apologies to those who think it was a waste of time
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Me, mturner, and a desk full of quarters: a thoroughly irrational post
Here is the proof that evolutionists are insecure about themselves. Without a purpose in your life, someone proving you wrong will shatter your life.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gcameron:
When I read mturner's smug, insulting, and generally infuriating responses to my earlier comments, I banged my desk and a bunch of quarters fell down. This happens a lot. I debated a creationist once (I am not implying you are a creationist, mturner: if you start putting words in my mouth again, I will not be responsible for what I do) and he just kept coming back with 4-million-page-long responses about Behe and irreducible complexity and all that rot. When I returned to the forum one time and scanned his latest response, I threw a book across the room with anger.
Mturner, you are reading these words and you are happy. "He was angry at what I said, which means he is insecure in his beliefs, and somewhere in his little heart of hearts he knows I am right."
Go away, mturner. You have your answers. Well done. You will die a satisfied man. I will not. I have no opinion that can hold up to more than 5 minutes of debate. I don't know you're right, though. I still think that the illusion of a teleologically-forward-directed evolution is just that, an illusion, and that any orderly system over time will appear to have been designed.
You will have a 40,000 page reply for that comment. And you know what? I don't want to hear it.
I can't debate you.
You win.
You may be right.
YOU MAY BE RIGHT.
YOU MAY BE 100% CORRECT.
YO MAY HAVE FIGURED IT ALL OUT.
Or perhaps Duane Gish did.
Or perhaps Michael Behe did.
Or perhaps Gould did.
Or perhaps Dawkins did.
Or perhaps Darwin did.
You know what? They all disagree with one another to varying degrees, they can all write 4 million page books explaining WHY they disagree with one another, and they are all far more intelligent and educated than I am. So fuck it. The whole thing's a goddam waste of time unless you are a professional and can quote the latest experiment by Q. Dodgkins and L. Verschportsmoken Playovskosta in which it is definitively proven that cannibalism in flatworms leads to the growth of propellors.
Maybe Dawkins just got his hooks in me first. Maybe he implanted his evil nihilist memes in me and I'm trapped forever. Maybe the whole thing is a fucking religion. You know what? I don't know. I really honest to God just don't know anymore.
So I give up. I am going to become a creationist now.
No, wait. I'll become what mturner is, instead. Which is, uh, I guess, a teleologically-forward-directed-neo-Lamarckian-evolutionist. Or something. I'll become what mturner is because I don't like his smartass tone and I have no desire to trade 400-post debates with him. So, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. La de da!
/the following has been an angry rant. apologies to those who think it was a waste of time</font>
Yes, you are a pinnacle of open-mindedness and inward-looking self-critiquing, aren't you, 6Days?
Oh, I forgot.
YOU have the answer. Yahweh told you.
For the record, so we all understand it: YOU have the answer. I don't, YOU do. YOU are right and I am wrong. YOU are not closed-minded, because YOU know that YOU are right. I AM closed-minded, because I am unsure whether I am right.
Ok!
I will now become a YEC like you. Praise Jesus! Tell me what I'm supposed to believe so I can be a good YEC, okay?
Mturner, save me quickly so I can go back to being a neo-lamarckian evolutionist!
[This message has been edited by gcameron (edited June 22, 2001).]
Oh, I forgot.
YOU have the answer. Yahweh told you.
For the record, so we all understand it: YOU have the answer. I don't, YOU do. YOU are right and I am wrong. YOU are not closed-minded, because YOU know that YOU are right. I AM closed-minded, because I am unsure whether I am right.
Ok!
I will now become a YEC like you. Praise Jesus! Tell me what I'm supposed to believe so I can be a good YEC, okay?
Mturner, save me quickly so I can go back to being a neo-lamarckian evolutionist!
[This message has been edited by gcameron (edited June 22, 2001).]
You're so fucking happy, aren't you, 6Days, to find an evolutionist who is uncertain.
I am uncertain.
I proclaim it to the world:
I AM UNCERTAIN!!!!
I don't know the truth. I don't claim to. I am trying to navigate one of the most complicated, puzzling questions in the history of ideas, in my spare time. All right? And unlike you I can't simply throw out the work of 150 years of interdisciplinary sciences, geography, biology, astronomy, physics, simply because they contradict with this or that religious text.
Don't you get it, man? Don't you understand what it means to not be sure that you are right? To realize that your particular worldview may be determined by certain factors, that you can't get outside yourself, that if you were to look at things in another light it might all appear different?
God, you don't even get it, do you? You haven't a clue what I'm thinking, or why these questions vex me. You're just combing this forum for any sign of weakness, any admission of uncertainty, because you haven't got the balls to get in here and mix it up in a real debate. At least mturner has the balls for that. At least Theo the Logian has the balls for that.
I pity you. Your mind is utterly closed. I can admit my own uncertainties. I can admit I may not know everything. I can admit my entire perspective on the universe may be crushingly wrong.
Can you? Can you even comprehend what it means to do so?
I am uncertain.
I proclaim it to the world:
I AM UNCERTAIN!!!!
I don't know the truth. I don't claim to. I am trying to navigate one of the most complicated, puzzling questions in the history of ideas, in my spare time. All right? And unlike you I can't simply throw out the work of 150 years of interdisciplinary sciences, geography, biology, astronomy, physics, simply because they contradict with this or that religious text.
Don't you get it, man? Don't you understand what it means to not be sure that you are right? To realize that your particular worldview may be determined by certain factors, that you can't get outside yourself, that if you were to look at things in another light it might all appear different?
God, you don't even get it, do you? You haven't a clue what I'm thinking, or why these questions vex me. You're just combing this forum for any sign of weakness, any admission of uncertainty, because you haven't got the balls to get in here and mix it up in a real debate. At least mturner has the balls for that. At least Theo the Logian has the balls for that.
I pity you. Your mind is utterly closed. I can admit my own uncertainties. I can admit I may not know everything. I can admit my entire perspective on the universe may be crushingly wrong.
Can you? Can you even comprehend what it means to do so?
Thanks for the sentiment but what's the use?
We are supposed to be men of reason (I use "men" in a non-sex-specific sense, sorry, but "people of reason" just sounds wimpier). Men unafraid to confront uncomfortable ideas. We are not in this to feel good about ourselves. We are trying to construct the most accurate model of reality possible.
I want support and comfort equivalent to what the fundy has in his little bible group with his little bible friends and his little bible school.
But that would be missing the whole point.
Why do we become so attached to our opinions?
Why do I care whether evolution is true? Or whether Darwinism is a sufficient explanation for it? Or whether there is a God, for that matter? Or which God it is? Why do I get angry when people disagree with me? Why not just navigate the question with utter objectivity, weighing the points one at a time, unafraid to change one's mind should the evidence so dictate?
We are supposed to be men of reason (I use "men" in a non-sex-specific sense, sorry, but "people of reason" just sounds wimpier). Men unafraid to confront uncomfortable ideas. We are not in this to feel good about ourselves. We are trying to construct the most accurate model of reality possible.
I want support and comfort equivalent to what the fundy has in his little bible group with his little bible friends and his little bible school.
But that would be missing the whole point.
Why do we become so attached to our opinions?
Why do I care whether evolution is true? Or whether Darwinism is a sufficient explanation for it? Or whether there is a God, for that matter? Or which God it is? Why do I get angry when people disagree with me? Why not just navigate the question with utter objectivity, weighing the points one at a time, unafraid to change one's mind should the evidence so dictate?
How dare you presume to know whether or not I have a purpose in my life, and what that purpose may or may not be.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">6days: Without a purpose in your life, someone proving you wrong will shatter your life.</font>
How dare you trivialize my serious, earnest, sincere, ongoing quest to understand the nature of reality and the universe, and deride it simply because it does not necessarily arrive at a simple declaration of "purpose" as described in the religious writings of one ancient nation among numerous others in a wide and complicated world.
How dare you presume to say that because I do not take the Israelites' creation stories literally, I can have no "purpose" in life and am some how inferior to you.
How dare you belittle me, you tiny-minded little man. How dare you presume to know what is in my mind.
You disgust me.
I don't know why we become so attached to our opinions. I've wondered about it myself.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gcameron:
Why do we become so attached to our opinions?
Why do I care whether evolution is true? Or whether Darwinism is a sufficient explanation for it? Or whether there is a God, for that matter? Or which God it is? Why do I get angry when people disagree with me? Why not just navigate the question with utter objectivity, weighing the points one at a time, unafraid to change one's mind should the evidence so dictate?</font>
Some of are able to change our minds, about some things. I happen to agree with you on this one, though. I don't think you could be completely objective and still be human.
IMO the issue of creationism vs. evolution is
about more than just creationism and evolution. The very idea that there are political movements to have it taught in our schools as "fact" & "truth" is reason enough to care.
I don't know about you, but I don't care which god anyone believes in, just as long as they don't try to convince, coerce, bribe or force me to believe.
[This message has been edited by freemonkey (edited June 22, 2001).]