Eastern religions in general

premjan · Post by **premjan** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:54 pm

Is it better to meditate with the eyes open? Basically there is a subjective end result that is sought, and it could be achieved in any effective way. I don't see why it isn't open to scrutiny. Sure there is a lot of room for snake oil there.

Philippe* · Post by Philippe* » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:33 pm

It depends on the meditations, technics, traditions, people... It is strongly advised to practise with the eyes open as far as I know just in some traditions : zen, vajrayana Buddhism are coming to my mind. You can find the other way advised, as it also helps to get more interiority. In Patanjali Yoga which I practiced on a daily basis, the heartbeat is most important, it is taken before and after some practice and you adjust the practice according to the heartbeat as an indicator of your both physical and inner state. Breathing is taken into account, it comes from experiences of yogis since time immemorial. It is seen as related to the life force, and is considered as an interface between the body and the mind. Controlling the breath makes easier to control the mind. Moreover while remaining in seated meditation, the attention can go naturally to both the posture and breathing which causes regular movements of the body. It is generally admitted that you can meditate without being in a special posture or that you can get inner experiences without any ritualized practice. It is open to scrutiny, but in this matter, generally the practice aims at stilling the mind so that "something deeper shines". In Patanjali Yoga the practice can also be tailored to the individual by an inspired and competent teacher according to one's body abilities, mind, cultures, beliefs, age... By the way it can be noted that some scientists study the effects of yoga and meditation on the body and the mind.

What is required above all generally is what is called in Sanskrit shraddha which is an inner trust that needs to be carefully preserved and developed, Vyasa in Yogabhashya wrote that Faith protects the yogi as a lovely mother. Shraddha can indicate various kinds of trust from trust in the teacher, the technic to trust in various concepts of the Absolue, God, Nature...There can be a healthy doubt that prevents from obscurantism but scepticism for scepticism's sake is barren spiritually. The mind constructs, deconstructs endlessly but time is running out and it can be a serious hindrance in the spiritual practice. One must understand that on the whole for such traditions as long as a man is still roaming in the common mind, he can not judge of what is believed to be "supraconscient" matters as he is limited by his condition and all judgments from such ignorant mind are invalidated.

Philippe

LÃ³gos SokratikÃ³s · Post by **LÃ³gos SokratikÃ³s** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:14 pm

Dalehileman, first remember these practices precede by hundreds and thousands of years the advent of modern science. IMO many of them provide powerful insights into reality not achievable by a life of fishing, agriculture or foot-soldiery. They were an improvement.

Second, you criticize their stress on technique. How can that be bad? What do you want people to do, to say "This is a bike, use it as you wish and however you like". Soon you'll be having people trying to hull rice with them or kill game by throwing them! Instruction about technique is what helped preserve their practices for centuries.

Third, about subjecting themselves to scrutiny, I believe they have, at least certain Buddhist monks.

adren@line · Post by **adren@line** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:51 am

[quote=""dalehileman""]The trouble with Eastern practices (as they don't like to be called religion or philosophy) in general is that they seem unable or unwilling to subject themselves to scrutiny. For instance why should it be better to meditate with the eyes open and to concentrate on the breathing rather than the heartbeat; why posture should be of importance; why the same results cannot be obtained by sudden intuition or autosuggestion, releasing the individual to other more productive or praiseworthy works[/quote]

Why don't you try meditating with your eyes open while focusing on your heartbeat, commission a scientific study (which has been done for traditional meditation), and then report back with your results?

well?

SecularFuture · Post by **SecularFuture** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:48 am

[quote=""dalehileman""]The trouble with Eastern practices (as they don't like to be called religion or philosophy) in general is that they seem unable or unwilling to subject themselves to scrutiny.[/quote]
Some of the Eastern groups I've been apart of didn't have any patience for scrutiny. However, there were some groups that did, and even invited it. It really just depends on where you go.

For instance why should it be better to meditate with the eyes open

Again, it depends on where you go. But most of the groups I attended recommended eyes closed during meditation because it turns off some of the distractions.

and to concentrate on the breathing rather than the heartbeat

I've only heard of breath meditation. But if I had to choose a meditation style, I would go with metta.

why posture should be of importance

It's hard to hold focus if you're uncomfortable.

why the same results cannot be obtained by sudden intuition or autosuggestion, releasing the individual to other more productive or praiseworthy works

I don't object to this, and I agree. Meditation is not the only way to develop tranquility, insight, or concentration.

Philippe* · Post by Philippe* » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:59 pm

[quote=""Philippe*""] In Patanjali Yoga which I practiced....
[/quote]

error... I still practice it...

Philippe

wordy · Post by **wordy** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:00 pm

[quote=""dalehileman""]The trouble with Eastern practices (as they don't like to be called religion or philosophy) in general is that they seem unable or unwilling to subject themselves to scrutiny. For instance why should it be better to meditate with the eyes open and to concentrate on the breathing rather than the heartbeat; why posture should be of importance; why the same results cannot be obtained by sudden intuition or autosuggestion, releasing the individual to other more productive or praiseworthy works[/quote]

wow, you don't know what you are in for. Daring to question their expertise in these things. they love to tear you apart and make you wish you never open your mouth. these believers are True Believers indeed.