• Information on this archive. See IIDB.org
  • Please join us on IIDB (iidb.org)
    This is the archived FRDB and IIDB forum from prior to about March 2014. It is read only. If you would like to respond or otherwise revive a post or topic, please join us on the active forum: IIDB.

Gospel Eyewitnesses

Textual and historical discussions of Abrahamic holy books (Bible, Talmud, Qur'an) to challenge and illuminate the stories therein.
Posts: 8817
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:43 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post by Sheshbazzar » Thu May 23, 2013 12:24 am


Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Diary of the Passion

Post by Adam » Sat May 25, 2013 1:37 am

My new policy has been to try to distinguish between when an eyewitness is stating his testimony (and still subject to the errors in such) and when I am saying that the author who wrote the record did not himself witness the event or saying. That turns out to be little problem for this Passion Narrative in my Post #630, for my proposed author John Mark could have seen virtually everything. Not the starting verse, John 11:54, but it would be a good start for him to explain why Jesus came to be at his house--Jesus was now working undercover. That John Mark was the son of a Mary is known and that her house was a Christian refuge (Acts 12:12), so we would expect him to be present for the anointing in John 12:1-9. Granted, that's a strange event, but accordingly someone who saw it would record it as memorable. Such an eyewitness would likely also come along to be able to add a few subsequent verses about Jesus coming into Jerusalem.

A few days later likely in the same house for the Last Supper, a few verses overlapping the Synoptics reasonably fit in into this diary-like account of the most memorable verses where Judas and Peter are prophesized to do wrong. For those here in FRDB who don't believe in foreknowledge, this is no objection in this case, for a witness would recall after the fact what had been foretold while forgetting what Jesus may have said that was not pertinent. This eyewitness didn't remember anything about the foot-washing, the Eucharist, or the Farewell Discourse.

John 18 and 19 proceed as "fact-by-fact" type recounting of what Peter or his close associate "the disciple known to the High Priest" would have been able to see or hear (or could have immediately asked about what's going on). My version excludes what Teeple assigns to the Editor, but even those omitted verses contain nothing supernatural. Some critics find Pilate's behavior out of keeping with the brutal man history records, but he could have been just spiting the priests by what he said in favor of Jesus. Teeple excludes the sermonizing verses or parts of verses that are clearly sermonizing that a diarist would not have written--19:24, 28 and 31-37 show later reflection that Teeple, not I, exclude. If this were written later as fiction, wouldn't those verses be the justification for writing in the first place? Yet they were fitted in later.

Further indication that John Mark is here writing up his diary here is that the parallel version in Mark 14 51-52 gives us the odd account of a young man running away naked after his linen cloth was seized. That's something a diarist would find worth writing down about himself, but that would readily disappear in write-ups about Jesus in what's left now in John, Matthew, and Luke.

Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post 630 Passion Diary: delete 18:4-8

Post by Adam » Sun May 26, 2013 9:23 pm

I have spotted a problem in my Post #630 that hinders my case that we have here in the source a simple diary-type account. I left standing John 18:6 in which Jesus says “I am” and then “they drew back and fell to the ground.” If that actually happened, of course, it would be well worth mention in a diary. However, for our purposes here in FRDB we need a text free of what could be seen here as supernatural trappings around Jesus simply saying his name and having power in the name. I left it in because Teeple does (as his S Source), but there is nothing in the style of the verse that makes it not just like 5b and 7-8 that Teeple properly assigns to the E Editor (because “Jesus” is anarthrous). Teeple’s reasoning (and it’s good reasoning) was likely that verse 6 reads like a continuation of 5a (5b was a clumsy intrusion). Teeple had included 5a as S Source because “Jesus the Nazoraean” was not anarthrous enough by his rule in his Appendix (Syntax, p. 253). There he never shows that an. def. is used by the Editor. (Teeple does not say he didn’t, either). Yet verse 18:7 Teeple classifies as E! This exhibits Teeple’s dogged problem with splitting G (Gnostic) from E, in which he thinks he has disposed of the an. def. problem by assigning such cases to G. But that’s too much for Teeple in this clearly editorial john 18:7, he doesn’t try to pass it off as G on pg. 234. That implies that verse 5a can also be categorized as E (and further weakening Teeple’s special pleading that E typically repeats G phrasing instead of simply acknowledging that the same Discourse material continues), giving us a straight run John 18:4-8 that is all E and no S. This removes the dramatic “falling back” from my proposed diary source. Thus any problem about supernaturalism is eliminated.

(I notice that my post #632 got lots of reads, but no one apparently was driven to read #630 with enough attention to spot the above problem. It’s not a problem from my world-view, but I should have given better care to adapting to FRDB views. But should I stick closely to objectivity following Teeple or overrule him as I had already done in my marginal notes and in my Gospel Eyewitnesses Post #144
In which I list 18:1a, 2, 4-8, 10ac, 13a, 14, 25a, 26b, 30; 19:26-27 as from the Editor?)

"Another" erratum:
In Post #630 I readily incorporate "G" material, because Teeple's rules do not so clearly mean that G material cannot be S. I have nevertheless even included some E items where I found warrant, as in John 18:15-16. However, what I labeled there as "E" included mostly "G" elements:
"he entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest, 16 but Peter stood outside at the door. Then went out the other disciple", but only the "known to the high priest" (and associated preceding "that disciple" or "the one") were regarded by Teeple as from E (and with no particular necessity to split out as not G). Thus I was hardly modifying Teeple at all.

Posts: 3566
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:20 pm
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post by Iskander » Sun May 26, 2013 11:22 pm


Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:


Post by Adam » Mon May 27, 2013 2:36 am

MEMO: To all:
My recent posts reveal I can make errors, but more importantly that I am ready to correct them. Much more importantly they display that I am honest and that my diligence with the truth can be demonstrated.

As shown in my #633 I had already eliminated in #144 John 18:4-8 from my earliest layer of sources, even though not until 400 posts later did I start developing my GattA idea that the three earliest sources pass the a priori requirement here that there be no supernaturalism. In my earlier post I had no agenda to promote. I had simply inspected Teeple's criteria and honestly preferred my own modification, even though I had no partisan interest in showing that verses 5a and 6 were not from the S Source. (In my Passion Diary text in Post #630 I nevertheless followed Teeple closely to be more objective than giving only my reworking--and all of this I clearly labeled for the various sources S, G, E, and R. I readily allow myself to delete E intrusions, but I tend to feel obligated to include all of Teeple's S instead of following my own marginal coding of what I was sure was E.) I knew Teeple's criterion regarding anarthrous definitive names (__Jesus the Nazoraean) even in Teeple's text often got categorized as E Editor (20:18; 18:7 as already stated). I saw no reason for John 18:4-8, non-Synoptic, to be anything besides E. John 18:4 and 8 also display the suspicious supernatural power of Jesus

TO: spin and Jeffrey
I assume that the apparent supernaturalism in John 18:6 means that you would relegate it to a later stratum and agree with me for moving it from S to E. So even with Teeple as the super-expert on the Greek style in John, a non-expert can correct his work where Teeple has gone overboard. What's important is a talent for source criticism. I like to stick with the objectivity provided by literary style, but carrying it too far falls into the hyper-criticism of the 19th Century.

It is important to the value of my work (but not to its intrinsic core thesis) that I mostly correctly moved much of E into G. Yet my detailed reworking of Teeple could go farther (S to E, a step beyond going from E to G) where applicable. Teeple's differentiation between S and G was never all that clear by style, but by S being narrative and G being discourse.

Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post by Adam » Mon May 27, 2013 10:03 pm

[The second eyewitness author wrote almost the entirety of the Discourses (basically merging Teeple's G source and discourses within the E source, mostly free of supernatural events except minor faith healing), so this is too long for one post. It’s better anyway to split it into the three logically distinct components that help identify it as written while Jesus was alive. The recurrent name “Nicodemus” suggests him as a worthy author. For John 3, 5 , and 7 he gives a neutral presentation of Jesus. Only after the charge given to him at John 7:52 does he start portraying Jesus in John 8, 10, and 6 as a terrifying megalomaniac (the Messiah with divine claims).]Extracted from Early Aramaic Gospels
John 3:
E 1 …Nicodemus, the name to him, an official of the Jews, ….3 Answered Jesus and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, G unless a person has been born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” E 4 Nicodemus says to him, “How can a man being old be born (again”? Can he enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born?” 5 Answered Jesus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, G unless a person has been born from E …the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. 6 The (thing) having been born from the flesh is flesh, and the (thing) having been born from the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, G 'It is necessary (that) you be born from above.' E 8 The Spirit blows where it wills, and you hear its voice, but you do not know whence it comes or where it goes. Thus is everyone having been born from the spirit.”

9 Answered Nicodemus and said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Answered Jesus and said to him, “Are you a teacher of Israel and do not know these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you that what we know we speak and what we have seen we testify (to), and you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”

G 13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who has descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And even as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 in order that everyone believing in him may have life eternal.”

G? 16 For God thus loved the world that he gave the only begotten Son, in order that everyone believing on him might not perish but have life eternal. E 17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order that he might judge the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 The one believing on him is not judged; the one not believing has already been judged because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
G? 19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world and men loved the Darkness rather than the Light, for their works were wicked. 20 For everyone committing evil hates the Light and does not come to the Light, in order that his works may not be exposed. 21 But the one doing the Truth comes to the Light in order that his works may be manifested that they have been worked in God.
[Preceding six verses or so seem to be later sermonizing, as do verses 26b through 36 that Teeple splits between G and E. John 4 is even more complicated and seems to include back-filled G and E segments. In any case it is not necessarily early.]
John 4: [Perhaps scattered insertions]
John 5:
E 10…And it was the Sabbath on that day. 19 Then the Jews were saying to the one having been healed, “It is the Sabbath and it is not lawful for you to Pick up your bed.” 11 And he answered them, :The one having made me well, that one said to me, “Pick up your bed and walk.” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man, the one having said to you ’Pick up and walk’?” 13 And the one having been healed did not know who it is…..15 The man went away and proclaimed to the Jews that Jesus is the one having made him well…. G 17 And he (Jesus) answered them, “My Father works until now, and I work.” …19 Then he answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing from himself, except what he sees the father doing. E For whatever that one does, these things also the Son does likewise. G 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows to him all things which he himself does, and greater works than thee he will show to him in order that you may marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and makes (them) alive, thus also the Son makes alive whom he wishes. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father the one having sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing my word and believing the one having sent me has life eternal and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

E 25 Truly, truly, I say to you that the hour comes and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and having heard, will live. G 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, thus also he has given to the Son to have Life in himself. 27 And he has given to him authority to make judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour comes in which all the ones in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and the ones having done good will go forth into the resurrection of life, the ones having committed evil (will go forth) into the resurrection of Judgment.
G 30 I can do nothing from myself; even as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my will but the will of the one having sent me. 31 If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another, the one testifying about me, and I know that true is the testimony which he testifies about me. E 33 You sent to John, and he has testified to the truth….35 That one was a burning and shining lamp, and you wanted to rejoice for an hour in his light…..

G 37 And the Father having sent me, has testified about me. Neither his voice have you ever heard nor his form have you seen. 38 and his word you do not have staying in you, E because whom that one sent you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think (that ) in them you have life ete4rnal, and those are the ones testifying about me. 40 And you do not want to come to me In order that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from men. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 I have come in the name of my Father, and you do not receive me. If another should come in his own name, that one you will receive. 44 How can you believe, receiving glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory, the one from the only (God)? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. The one accusing you is Moses, on whom you hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me. For that one wrote about me. 47 And if you do not believe the Scriptures of that one, how will you believe my words?”
[Note that I skip John 6 until after John 10:21. (I made that rearrangement in Peloubet’s Harmony in 1964, not driven by my current thesis that the commission to Nicodemus in John 7:52 best precedes the over-the-top Jesus we find in much of John 6.) Note, however, that the most extreme verses are assigned by Teeple to the R Redactor and are thus not included here: John 6:54-59 (and some preceding verses included here, but difficult to specify.]
John 7:
S 6 Then Jesus says to them, G ” My time is not yet present, but your time is always ready. 7 The World is not able to hat you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. 8…E I am not yet going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled” …. 11 then the Jews were seeking him at the feast and were saying, ”Where is that one?” {12 And there was much murmuring about him in the crowd. Some were saying that “He is a good Man.” Others were saying, “But no, he leads the crowd astray.”} 13 Nevertheless, no one was speaking publicly about him on account of the Jews. 14 And already in the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and was teaching. 15 Then the Jews marveled, saying, “How does this one know letters, not having been taught?”

16 Then answered them Jesus and said, “My teaching is not mine but of the one having sent me. 17 If anyone wills to do his will, he shall know about the teaching, whether it is from God or I speak from myself. 18 The one speaking from himself seeks his own glory. But the one seeking the glory of the one having him, this one is true and unrighteousness is not in him.
E 19 Has not Moses given you the law? And no one of you does the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” 20 The crowd answered “You have a demon! Who seeks to kill you?” 21 Answered Jesus and said to them, “One work I did and you all marvel. 22 On account of this Moses has given to you circumcision…and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23 If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath in order that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I made a whole man well on the Sabbath? 24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge (with) righteous judgment.” 25 Then some of the Jerusalemites were saying, “Is not this one he whom they were seeking to kill? 26 And behold, he speaks publicly, and they say nothing to him. Have not the authorities truly known that this one is the Christ? 27 But we know whence (from Galilee) this one is; but when the Christ comes, no one will know whence he is.”

G 28 The Jesus cried out while teaching in the temple and saying, “And you know me whence (from heaven) I am. And I have not come from myself, but the one having sent me is true, E whom you do not know. 29 I know him, because I am from him and that one has sent me.” 30 Then they were seeking to seize, him, and no one laid a hand on him because his hour had not yet come. { 31 But many of the crowd believed on him, and they were saying, “When the Christ has come, will he not do more signs than this one has done?” 32 The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things about him….}

G 33 Then Jesus said, E “Still a little time I am with you, and I go to the one having sent me. G You will seek me and not find; where I am you will not be able to come.” 35 Then the Jews said to themselves, “Where is this one about to go, that we will not find him: Is he about to go into the Diaspora of the Greeks and to teach the Greeks? 36 What is this word which he said, ‘You will seek me and you will not find’ and ‘where I am you are not able to come’?”
G 37 On the last day…of the feast Jesus stood and cried out saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 The one believing on me, even as the Scripture said, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his belly.’”
E 39 And he said this about the Spirit which the ones believing on him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet (given), because Jesus was not yet glorified….

50 Says to them Nicodemus, the one coming to him first, being one of them, 51 “Does our Law not judge a man unless it first hears from him and knows what he does?” 52 They answered and said to him, “Are you also from Galilee? Search (the Scriptures) and see that a prophet is not to rise from Galilee.”
[Notice these last three verses seem to say Nicodemus gets a mission to show Jesus is not the Messiah.]

Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post by Adam » Tue May 28, 2013 4:45 am

Nicodemus (tentatively) as my second non-supernaturalist author readily gives evidence, but perhaps I should have held it off for later. In my off-shoot thread
Adam's Eyewitnesses...Post #70
I proposed an alternate take instead, of GattA without the Johannine Discourses. This Proto-Luke nucleus could be called "The Gospel According to the Jews", not such a strange concept in the light of Hyam Maccoby and Rabbi Schmuely Boteach striving to reconcile fervent Judaism with a Jesus acknowledged as a rabbi. These two focused their attempt employing the Gospel of Matthew, however, not the Proto-Luke that to me seems more suitable--but to a more liberal Judaism. For any kind of Judaism not going Messianic with Jesus, however, I don't see the Johannine Discourses as helpful.

To the extent that I did not give the above due consideration, I apologize. I went ahead and hammered on my stongest cases first, my Passion Diary and currently the Discourses in John

Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post by Adam » Wed May 29, 2013 6:04 am

[Looks like I forestalled attacks on my Passion Diary by acknowledging some mistakes and correcting them. I expected my next candidate eyewitness author to be rejected even during what I present here as the above “neutral” phase, with some sayings of Jesus disliked even from John 3, 4, 5 and 7. There again I may have avoided the problems by labeling some sections as sermonizing that we would not need to regard as early text. Coming from Arian-Unitarian predilections I never liked John 3:16-21, 31-36 (and these last I did not even include in my text, following many translations that don’t put quote marks around these verses, supposedly from John the Baptist, anyway). Nevertheless, their style is like the rest of the Johannine Discourses. My argument would be that the same person who translated from Aramaic also added these verses in Greek. It is certainly true that Jesus presents himself quite grandly in these chapters, but he is not confrontational and insulting.
Consider in contrast the following chapters 8 to 10 and 6, however. Immediately after the challenge to Nicodemus at the conclusion of John 7, John 8:12 (the first verse after the dubious first 11 verses) gives offense to the Pharisees, who fight back in verse 13. By 8:19 Jesus denies that they know his Father, in 8:23 he says they are from below, in 8:41 that they do the work of their father who is not God (and in 8:44 is the Devil). By 8:55 they are liars. The tenor of John 8 is altogether different from the earlier Jesus, still by the same writer but possessed by a different attitude.
John 10 gives positive imagery, but Jesus’s enemies are now strangers and thieves. I place John 6 after John 10:21, and find there somewhat awkward sayings of Jesus after the Feeding of the Five Thousand (though nothing as bad as John 8). How about John 6:53, where one must eat and drink the Son of Man or not have life? (Even worse verses follow, but Teeple attributes them to the Redactor.) By verse 60 (probably right after 53 by my reckoning) even his disciples are asking, “Who is able to hear it?” and in 6:66 many disciples leave. (Teeple lists these last as from the S Source, but they fit better into this middle section of Discourse in which the writer is out to present Jesus at his worst.]

John 8:
E 12 Then again to them G Jesus spoke saying, “I am the Light of the world. The one following me will not walk in Darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 Then the Pharisees said to him, “You are testifying about yourself; your testimony is not true.” E 14 Answered Jesus and said to them, “And if I testify about myself, my testimony is true, because I know whence I came and where I am going. You do not know whence I come or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 But even if I judge, G and my judgment is true because I am not alone, but I and the one having sent me. 17 An even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am the one testifying about myself; the father having sent me also testifies about me.”
E 19 Then they were saying to him, “Where is your father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father; if you knew me, my Father also you would know.” 20 He spoke these words in the treasury (while) teaching in the temple. And no one seized him, because not yet had his hour come. 21 Then he said again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you are not able to come.” 22 Then the Jews were saying, “he isn’t going to kill himself, is he, that he says “Where I am going, you are not able to come?” 23 And he was saying to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 I said to you that you will die in your sins.” 25 They were saying to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Whatever I also told you (at) the beginning. 26 I have many things about you to speak and to judge, but the one having sent me is true, and I what I have heard from him, these things I speak to the world.” 27 They did not know that he was speaking to them (about) the Father.
G 28 then Jesus said “Whenever you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am and I do nothing from myself, but even as the Father has taught me, these things I speak. 29 And the one having sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, because I always do the things pleasing to him.” E
30 When He spoke these things, many believed on him.
John 8:31
G 31 Then Jesus was saying to the Jews having believed him, “If you remain in my word you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are seed of Abraham, and we have never been enslaved to anyone. How do you say that “”You will become free”? E 34 Answered them Jesus,” Truly, truly, I say to you that everyone doing sin is a slave of sin. 35 But the slave does not remain in the house forever. 36 Then if the Son makes you free, you will really be free. G 37 I know that you are seed of Abraham, but E you seek to kill me because G my word has no place in you. E 38 What I have seen with the Father, I speak; then also what you have heard from the Father, do”….

E 40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who has spoken the truth to you, which I have heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the works of your father.” They said to him, “We have not been born from fornication; we have one father, God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for G I came forth from God, and I have come. For I have not come from myself, E but that one sent me. G 43 Why do you not know my speech? It is because you are not able to hear my word. 44 You are from (your) father the Devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer from the beginning and did not stand in the truth, because the truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own (nature), because he is a liar and the father [of lies]. 46 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Does any of you convict me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe? 47 The one being from God hears the words of God. G On account of this you do not listen, that you are not from God. E 48 Answered the Jews and said to him, “Do we not rightly say that you are a Samaritan and you have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 And I do not seek my glory. There is one seeking and judging.

G 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone will keep my word, he will not see death forever. E 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died and the prophets, and you say, “If anyone will keep my word, he will not taste death forever.” 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died and the prophets (who) died? What do you yourself do?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I will glorify myself, my glory is nothing. My Father is the one glorifying me, whom you say that he is your God; 55 and you do not know him, but I know him. And if I said that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I know him and I keep his word. G 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw and was glad.” E 57 Then the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Then they picked up stones in order that they might throw them at him. But Jesus was hidden and went out from the temple.
[Skipping over John 9]
John 10
G 1 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one not entering through the door into the fold of the sheep, E but climbing over at some other place, that one G is a thief and a robber. 2 But the one entering through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and he leads them out. 4 Whenever he takes out all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But a stranger they do not follow, but will flee from him because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus spoke to them this figure, but those did not know what the things were which he was speaking to them. 7 Then Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the shepherd of the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and he will go in and go out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except in order to steal and to slaughter and to destroy. I came in order that they may have life and have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life in behalf of the sheep.

12 The hired man, being not even a shepherd, whose sheep are not his own, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees…13 because he is a hired man and it is not a concern to him about the sheep. G I am the good shepherd, and I know mine, and mine know me, 15 even as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life in behalf of the sheep.
E 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold. And it is necessary (for) me to lead those, and they will hear my voice and there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 On account of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, in order that I may take it up again.
G 18 No one took it from me, but I lay it down from myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. E This commandment I received from my Father.” 19 There was a schism again among the Jews on account of these words. 20 And many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is mad. Why listen to him?” 21 Others were saying, “These are not the words of a demon-possessed (person). Is a demon able to open the eyes of the blind?”

John 6: [No preceding verses are to be attributed to this source]
E 24 Then when the crowd saw that Jesus is not there, nor his disciples, S they came into Capernaum seeking Jesus. 25 And finding him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?”
G 26 Answered them Jesus and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, E you seek me not because you saw signs, but because you ate from the loaves and were filled.” G 27 Do not work for the meat the one perishing, but for the one remaining for life eternal, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father sealed this. 28 Then they said to him, “What should we do in order that we may work the works of God?” E 29 Answered Jesus and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe on whom that one sent.” G They said to him, “What sign do you do, in order that we may see and believe you? What do you work? E 31 Our fathers ate manna in the wilderness, even as it is having been written, “Bread from Heaven he gave to them to eat.” G 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, E Moses has not given to you the bread from Heaven, but G my Father gives to you the true bread from Heaven. E 33 For the bread of God is the one coming down from Heaven and giving life to the world.”

G 34 They said to him, “Lord, give to us always this bread.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. The one coming to me will not hunger, and the one believing on me will never thirst. E 36 But I said to you that you have even seen me and you do not believe. G 37 Everything which the Father gives to me will come to me, E and the one coming to me I will not cast outside, G 38 because I have come down from heaven not in order that I may do my will but the will of the one having sent me, 39 that everything which he has given to me I will not lose (any) of it, but I will raise it on the last day.

E 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone seeing the Son and believing on him may have life eternal, and I will raise him on the last day.” 41 Then the Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread the one having come down from heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say that ‘I have come down from heaven’”? 43 Answered Jesus and said to them, “Do not murmur with one another. 44 No one is able to come to me unless the Father, the one having sent me, should draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is having been written in the Prophets, “and all will be taught by God,” Everyone having heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the one being from God, this one has seen the Father.

47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one believing has life eternal. 48 I am the bread of life, 49 Your fathers ate manna in the wilderness and died. 50 This is the bread, the one coming down from heaven, that anyone may eat of it and may not die. G 51 I am the living bread, the one coming down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. G? And also the bread which I will give is my flesh (given) in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews were disputing with one another saying, “How is this one able to give to us flesh to eat?” 53 Then Jesus said to them, “
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves….
G 58 This is the bread, the one having come down from heaven, not even as the fathers ate and died….

S 60 Then many of his disciples, having heard, said, “This saying is hard. Who is able to hear it?” G 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them, “Are you offended at this? 62 Then (what) if you should see the Son of Man ascending where he was formerly? E 63 The Spirit is the thing making alive; the flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”…

E 65 And he was saying, “On account of this I have said to you that no one is able to come to me unless it has been given to him by the Father.” S 66 From this many of his disciples went back behind him and no longer walked with him. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you not also want to go?” 68 Answered him Simon Peter, “Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of life eternal; 69 and we have believed and we have known that you are the Holy One of God.”
[These (and other) last few verses of John 6 are hard to justify stylistic with the Discourses, but they certainly fit the theme in the above selection about Jesus's extremism.]

Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post by Adam » Fri May 31, 2013 6:21 pm

[For this final listing of the Discourses, the attitude of the writer changes from the foregoing hostility to an acceptance of Jesus as what he claimed to be. The interval preceding John 10:22 does not bring the complete break, as the rivalry with Jesus announcing an even more exalted status, but not quoted as damning his opponents. Instead the onus is on them, they are ready to throw stones at Jesus. (10:31, 11:8). If the writer is still gathering negative intelligence on Jesus, it is Jesus in response to questioning who states, “I and the Father are one” (10:30). It is the Jews who charge him with claiming to be God (10:33). Jesus is eventually quoted as saying “I am Son of God” (10:36), but only in the context of the preceding verses in which he quotes Psalms 82:6, “I said, you are gods.” He presents himself as a specially consecrated exemplar of that.

This raises the issue, of course, did the writer in the preceding chapters of John leave out the relevant context, as here where we see his enemies misrepresenting what he said. Did what they said get attributed to Jesus?
Some months after John 10 concludes, the writer of the Discourses fully takes Jesus’s side in all subsequent chapters. He allows Jesus to say quite exalted things about himself, but without a hint of personal reserve from himself as the writer. It could be that he had gotten so engrossed in recording all he could that he had no time for recriminations, but even if so this would be strong evidence of an eyewitness author recording what he himself had heard. Either way he had a new attitude that cannot be readily explained as theology written decades later.
Nor can the Farewell Discourse and final prayer (John 14 to 17) be dismissed as later reflection. Many scholars hold that all of John in unified in style, but even those who recognize the literary strata find no split between earlier and later strata. For Teeple it is the same mix of G and E as before.]
John 10:
R 23 …Jesus was walking in the temple….E Then the Jews surrounded him and were saying to him, “Until when do you take away our life? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” G Jesus answered, E “I told you, and you do not believe. The works which I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. 26 But G you do not believe because you are not from my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, 28 and I give them life eternal, and they will not perish forever, and no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 The Father who has given (them) to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch (them) from the hand of the Father. 30 I and the Father are one.”

E 31 The Jews picked up stones again in order that they might stone him. G Answered them Jesus, “Many good works I have shown to you from the Father. E For which work of them do you stone me?” 33 Answered him the Jews, “We stone you not about a good work, but about blasphemy, and because, being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Answered them Jesus, “Is it not written in your law that ‘I said, You are gods?’ 35 If he [God] said gods those to whom the word of God came,…36 do you say whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world that ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me, believe the works, in order that you may know and understand that the Father (is) in me and I (am) in the Father.” 39 They were seeking to seize him, and he went out from their hand.

John 11:
E 8 …”now the Jews are seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?” 9 Jesus answered, G “Are there not twelve hours in a day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” ….
41…And Jesus lifted up (his) eyes and said, “Father, I give thanks to you because you heard me. 42 But I knew that you always hear me, but I said (this) on account of the crowd, the one standing by, in order that they may believe that you sent me.”

John 12:
G 23 And Jesus answers them saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, if a kernel of wheat, falling into the earth, does not die, it itself remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 The one loving his life loses it, and the one hating his life in this world preserves it for life eternal. 26 If anyone would serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also my servant will be. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
E 27 Now my soul is disturbed, and what should I say—Father, save me from this hour? But on account of this I came into this hour 28 Father, glorify your name. “Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified and I will glorify (it) again.” 29 The crowd, the one standing and having heard, was saying, “It was thunder.” Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Answered Jesus and said, “This voice came not for the sake of me, but for the sake of you. 51 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. G 32 And if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all things to myself.”

E 33 And he was saying this signifying by what death he was about to die. 34 Then answered him the crowd, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever, and how do you say that it is necessary (that) the Son of Man be lifted up?” Who is this Son of Man? G 35 Then Jesus said to them, E “Still a little time the light is among you, G walk while you have the light, in order that darkness may not seize you. E And the one walking in the darkness knows not where he is going. G 36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, in order that you may become Sons of Light.” E Jesus spoke these things, and going away was hidden from them. 37 But (though) he had done so many signs before them, they did not believe on him….because Isaiah said, 40 he has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, in order that they may not see with their eyes and understand with (their) hearts, and change, and I would heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he has spoken about him…

G 44The one believing on me, believes not on me but on the one having sent me, 45 and the one seeing me sees the one having sent me. E 46 I have come as Light into the world, in order that the one believing on me may not remain in Darkness. 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come in order that I may judge the world, but in order that I may save the world. 48 The one rejecting me and not receiving my words has him who judges (him)….
49 Because I have not spoken from myself, but the Father having sent me has himself given commandment to me what I said and what I will speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life eternal. Therefore what things I speak, even as the Father told me, thus I speak.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------John 13:
G 1 Jesus, seeing that his hour had come that he should pass from this world to the Father….3 knowing that the Father had given to him all things into (his) hands,…
16 “Truly, truly, I say to you a slave is not greater than his master, nor an apostle than the one having sent him. 17 If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them….
20 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one receiving anyone I will send, receives me, and the one receiving me, receives the one having sent me.”

John 14:
G 1 “Let not your heart be disturbed; you believe on God, believe on me also. 2 In the house of my Father there are many rooms; and if (there were) not, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place4 for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to myself, in order that where I am, you also may be. E 4 And where I am going, you know the way.” 5 Thomas says to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus says to him, G I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. E If you had known me, my Father also you would have known…..8 Philip says to him, show to us the Father, and it will be sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus says to him, “So much time I am with you and you do not know me, Philip? The one having seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, “Show to us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that G I am in the Father and the Father is in me?” E The words which I say to you G I do not speak from myself. But the Father staying in me does the works themselves. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; if not, believe on account of the works.

12 Truly, truly, I say to you the one believing on me, the works which I do, that one also will do, and greater than these he will do because I am going to the Father. 13 And whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, in order that the Father may be glorified by the Son. G If you ask me anything in my name, I will give (it). E If you love me, G you will keep my commandments. E And I will ask the Father, and another Paraclete he will give to you, in order that it may be with you forever, 17 the Spirit of Truth, which the world is not able to receive, because it nether sees nor knows it. You know it, because it stays with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you. 19 Still a little (while) and the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 20 On that day you will know that I (am) in my Father and you in me and I in you. 21 The one having my commandments and keeping them, that one is the one loving me. And the one loving me will be kept by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him. 22 Says to him Judas, “Lord what happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Answered Jesus and said to him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word and we will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him. 24 The one not loving me does not keep my words.

G And the word which you hear is not mine, but of the Father having sent me. 125 I have spoken these things to you (while) staying with you. 26 And the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, which the Father will send in my name…will teach you all things.
E And will remind you of all things which I told you. G Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you; not as the world gives I give to you. E Let not your heart be disturbed no be timid. 28 You have heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it happens, in order that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me; 31 but in order that the world may know that I love the Father, and even as the Father has commanded me, thus I do. G Arise let us go from here.”

John 15:
G 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me not bearing fruit, he takes it away, and everything bearing fruit, he cleans it in order that it may bear more fruit. R 3 Already you are clean on account of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you; even as the branch is not able to bear fruit from itself except it remain in the vine, thus neither you (can) unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. E The one remaining in me and I in him, this one bears much fruit, because without me you are not able to do anything. G 6 If a person does not remain in me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered, and they gather and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in me E and my words remain in you, G ask whatever you wish and it shall be to you. E 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and become my disciple. 9 Even as the Father loved me, I also loved you. G Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you remain in my love, even as I have kept the commandments of the father and I remain in his love.

G 11 These things I have spoken to you in order that my joy may be in you and your joy may be filled. 12 This is my commandment E that you love one another even as I loved you. 13 Greater love than this has no one, that he lays down his life for the sake of his friends. G 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. E No longer I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master does; but I called you friends because all things which I heard from my Father I made known to you.
G 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed E in order that you may go and bear fruit and your fruit remain G in order that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give to you. 17 These things I command you in order that you may love one another. G 18 If the world hates you, know that it has hated me first. 19 If you were from the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not from the world, E –but I chose you from the world, on account of this—G the world hates you…. E If they persecuted me, you also they will persecute. If they kept my word, yours also they will keep. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one having sent me. 22 Unless I came and spoke to them, they would not have sin. But now they do not have an excuse for their sin. G 23 The one hating me also hates my Father. E 24 If I did not do the works among them which no one other did, they would not have sin. But now they have both seen and have hated me and my Father…. 26 E Whenever the Paraclete comes which I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth which proceeds from the Father, that one will testify about me. 27 And you also testify, because from the beginning you are with me.”

John 16:
E 1 I have spoken these things to you in order that you may not stumble. 2 They will ban you from the synagogues. But the hour comes that everyone killing you will think he offers service to God. 3 And they will do these things because they know neither the Father nor me. But I have spoken these things to you in order that whenever the hour has come, you will remember them, because I told you. 5 And now I go to the one having sent me, and no one of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’
G 6 But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 But I say the truth to you: it is advantageous for you that I go away. For if I do not go away, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send it to you. E 8 And coming that one will convict the world about sin and about righteousness and about judgment. 9 About sin because they do not believe on me; 10 and about righteousness because I am going to the Father and no longer you will see me; 11 and about judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged.

G 12 I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to hear (them) now. 13 But whenever that one comes, the Spirit of Truth, it will guide you into all truth. For it will not speak from itself, but whatever it hears it will speak, and the coming things it will proclaim to you. 14 That one will glorify me, because it will receive from me and proclaim to you.
E 15 All things whatsoever the Father has are mine. On account of this I say that it receives from me and proclaims to you. 16 A little (while) and no longer you will see me, and again al little (while) and you will see me.” 17 Then some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this which he says to us, ‘A little (while) and no longer you will see me, and again a little (while) and you will see me, ‘ and ‘because I am going to the Father’?” 18 Then they were saying, “What is this, ‘a little (while)’? We do not know.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, and he said to them, “About this are you deliberating with one another because I said, “A little (while) and you will not see me, and again a little (while) and you will see me.’? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you that you will weep and you will lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but you sorrow will become into joy. 21 Whenever a woman is in travail, she has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world. 22 Then you also have sorrow; but again I will see you and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one takes from you. 23 And on that day you will not ask me anything.

G Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father, he will give to you in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked anything in my name. Ask, and you will receive, in order that your joy may be filled. 25 These things in figures I have spoken to you; the hour comes when no longer in figures I will speak to you, but in plainness about the Father I will proclaim to you. 26 On that day in my name you will ask E and I do not say to you that I will ask G the Father. 27 For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me E and have believed that I came forth from God. G 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.
E 29 His disciples say, “Behold, now you speak in plainness, and you do not say a figure (of speech). 30 Now we know that you know all things and do not have need that anyone ask you;… 31 Answered them Jesus…. G 32…And I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33 These things I have spoken to you in order that you may have peace in me. In the world you have affliction, but have courage. I have conquered the world.”

John 17:
G 1 These things Jesus spoke, and G having lifted up his eyes to heaven, he said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son in order that the Son may glorify you. 2 Even as you gave to him authority over all flesh, in order that everything which you have given to him, he may give to them life eternal…. 4 I glorified you on earth, having completed the work which you had given to me in order that I should do.
E 5 And now glorify me, Father, with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was. 6 I manifested your name to the men whom you gave to me from the world. Yours they were and to me you have them, and your word they have kept. 7 Now they know that all things whatsoever you have given to me are from you, 8 because the words which you gave to me, I have given to them, and they themselves received, and they know truly that from you I came forth, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I ask for them; not for the world I ask, but for those whom you have given to me, because they are mine, and I have been glorified by them. 11 And no longer I am in the world, and they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name which you have given to me, in order that they may be one even as (are). 12 When I was with them, I kept them in your name and guarded (them), and no one of them is lost….. 13 And now I am coming to you and G I speak these things in the world in order that they may have my joy filled in themselves. 14 I have given to them your word, and the world hated them because they are not from the world even as I am not from the world. E 15 I do not ask that you take them from the world but (that) you keep them from evil. 16 From the world they are not, even as I am not from the world.

G 17 Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth. E 18 Even as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. G 19 And in behalf of them I sanctify myself, in order that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. E 20 And not about these only do I ask, but also about the ones believing on me through their word, 21 in order that all may be one, G Even as you, Father, (are) in me and I in you, in order that they themselves also may be in us, E in order that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And the glory which you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one even as we (are) one, G 23 I in them and you in me, in order that they may be completed into one, E in order that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

G 24 Father, what you have given to me, I wish that where I am, those also may be with me, in order that they may see my glory which you have given to me E because you loved me G before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, even the world did not know you, but I knew you. E And these knew that you sent me. 26 And I made know to them, and will make known, your name, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[I have presented John through John 17 above (mostly Teeple’s G and E) as all from one eyewitness (Nicodemus). He is the eyewitness author, but also the personal eyewitness to all but a few stray explanatory verses. Together with the Passion Diary these two provide the best evidence that some gospel sources were written quite early, by eyewitnesses, and probably during Jesus’s ministry or right afterwards.]

Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 am
Basic Beliefs:
Out Campaign: Real Name:

Post by Adam » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:43 pm

This editorial explanation may be worth its own post.
As a concluding thought on the above Discourses, I apologize if any of you took offense at my passages from John 5. (Also, that first “19” should have been a “10” and the preceding “10” a “9”.) They presuppose that some kind of faith-healing has taken place, a cure from paralysis. However, this is nothing one does not have to deal with in our own times, and how much more this was effective “magic” back when supernatural interventions were believed in by all. Whether this was a divine act is not at issue, just that here was a situation in which an eyewitness writer could quote Jesus’s words about this. The writer does not vouch for all this happening in a way that could only be explained by divine intervention.

That’s my apology to this point, but I did worse. I should not have included any of these above mislabeled verses before John 5:17 at all! In my
Post #38 here in Gospel Eyewitnesses

I had limited my proposed Nicodemus source to “most of 5:17-47”. That eliminates all the verses about the healing and the testimony to it. (Keep in mind that I derived those specifications long before I starting conceiving in the 500’s in this thread that non-supernaturalist sources existed.) So from my Post 636 delete any of John 5 preceding 5:17.

A similar problem occurs in John 9, that I avoided by not listing any of it. However, again in my Post #38 I included much of it: “most of 9 & 10, but not 9:1-2, 6-7, 13-17, 24-28”. The implied retained verses include the writer E Editor that brings in this evidential matter like the parents testifying that their son was born blind. On closer inspection these E passages have to be assigned to later editing, not the Discourses. John 9:35-41 includes several anarthrous names, so this and the closely related John 9:8-12, 18-23, and 29-34 have to be assigned to the later strata of editing. In spite of superficial similarity between John 5 and John 9, the latter includes no Discourse material like John 5:17-47.

Previewing my future post here, Q1 is not clearly a recording by an eyewitness, but Q is recognized by most critics and these usually recognize an earlier stratum within Q. It is early and thus found in both Matthew and Luke. The texts are too different to be from sharing a common Greek text, so an Aramaic text seems evident underlying them causing translation variants. This is yet more evidence that it is early. However, my argument for Q1 as non-supernaturalistic depends upon not bringing in evidence that it is by an eyewitness. Save that for later.
Q seems to be in higher standing now than Mark, probably for this very reason that it has so little of the supernatural. Yes, Luke 7:18-23 has Jesus telling the disciples of John the Baptist that he Jesus has been performing all kinds of miracles, but Mack and other scholars tend to assign this to Q2. Nor is this just liberal bias. I relegate to Q2 any passages where the Greek is very close or even identical between Matthew and Luke. Here Luke 7:19 and 22-23 are identical, and are not included below.
Much Q material is also found in the Gospel of Thomas. Very similar material in the latter is also found in the Gospel of Mark. This indicates that Mark includes some Q material and that Q must be earlier than Mark. Scholars tend to accept now that there is Q in Mark, and some now look only to Q to derive their understanding of Jesus. But these same scholars usually reject the Gospel of John as incompatible. Can I present the foregoing Discourses as eyewitness testimony and yet accept the current high valuation of Q? I presented my rationale for reconciling them together in my thread
Splicing Q and gJohn.

Then I presented the complete working out of parallel texts from them both in

Early Aramaic Gospels

(and from this latter come the individual texts that I am presenting now in this thread).
In that thread I intersperse similar passages between Q and John to show that they are not radically different. In this current thread I show where John in its middle sections does not seem to fairly represent what Jesus said. Thus the Discourses and Q1 can be added on to the Passion Diary as the very earliest records of what Jesus was like.